Francotte Serial Numbers
I am hoping that someone can answer a few questions I have about a shotgun I just bought. It's a 12 gauge boxlock double with 28' barrels and a red Pachmyr recoil pad.
It is marked Francotte's Arms and Liege on top of the barrels and Siemens Martin Steel (plus proof marks, etc.) on the bottom of the barrels.Is 'Francotte's Arms' different than 'A. There appears to be a Francotte mark on the barrel flats, but I can't find any info on Francotte's Arms as a brand.The choke designations on the undersides of the barrels say '18.3 (one star over an 's')Choke 18.2' and '18.4 (one star over an 's') Choke 18.3'. What does this mean?The forend seems to be unusual. Has anyone seen another like this?
Could it be a factory option?What is the value of this shotgun (90 to 95% condition)?Thanks! The forearm appears to be an aftermarket beavertail fitted to a SxS which originally had a splinter forearm. It appears that the stockmaker decided to use the original forearm iron and latch unaltered rather than reinforce it for a beavertail forearm, hence the hole in the beavertail to permit access to the original latch.
I've seen a few such 'conversions' in the past.IMO, care should be taken when fitting a beavertail forearm to a SxS originally fitted with a splinter forearm as the original barrel lug which engages the forearm latch may be insufficient to withstand the additional force applied during recoil and may result in the lug and/or lower rib separating from the barrels as I've seen happen with a nice J.P. Sauer sidelock which was restocked with a Bishop trap stock and beavertail forearm.DFMontani Semper Liberi. NDYour shotgun was made buy Auguste Francotte. Referring to one of your photos -Number 1 is the maker's mark for Auguste Francotte - a crown over 'AF' in an ovalNumber 2 is the Greek letter Phi which is the date code for 1961.
Auguste Francotte Serial Numbers
That manufacture year and the serial number 23889 indicate that your Francotte was one of their lower grade guns. Not a 'Best' but still a quality gun.The forend, while unusual, is not unknown on Francotte shotguns. I saw a similar one just last year in our shop and one of our gunsmiths told me that he has seen others. I believe that DF is correct when he says that it was an attempt to use an existing forend iron on an existing barreled action to accomodate a larger semibeavertail FE.Your Francotte was not one of the Francottes imported by Abercrombie & Fitch in 1961 and might have been made for the European market.Bob BeachGriffin & Howe, Inc. On some Euro shotguns, the choke measurement is stamped into each barrel metrically.So, since a 12ga = 0.729' = 18.5 mm; AND your barrels are marked '18.2' & '18.3', I would presume that it means those barrels measured out with.2mm &.3mm of restriction/smaller than the bore.That's not much, about like CYL/IMP CYL, AFAIK.A star/. over 'S' denotes Charles Daenen, the name of the Belgian Controller of Proof Codes at the time the gun underwent proof.
'CriscoKid', alias: Fat in the Can.
Additional Makes and serial numbers will be added as the project progresses. If you discover that your sporting firearm is in the records, Griffin & Howe will be happy to verify the model, if applicable, and the date when the sporting firearm was first entered into inventory.
Hi found you on the Firearms forum. I have a Francotte shotgun of my father's. Trying to find out about it.side by side hammer engraved metal looks like it had some gold something on it and seems varnishedTop of damascus Barrels has: 8601 R Francotte Paris Franceinside on bottom of barrels it has various 4 digit numbers, symbols:two crown and af marksE L G and a star in a ovalcrown and V very smalla name: J Arn???stock inside hascrown over MGB (small4 digit numbers (2 places)Outside on action has Paris France on one sideA Francotte on the otherthank you. First and foremost, DO NOT SHOOT IT; with any ammo. Better safe, than sorry!Second the EGL. in a oval shows that it was standard service load Black Powder proofed in Belgium! The 'AF' mark could indicate French mfg.
Other than at St. Etienne.The barrels might or might not actually be damascus type steel. Some cheaper guns had solid steel barrels treated to appear damascus. Even if so shooting it is certainly not recommended as safe today based on the sketchy info you have supplied.I suggest that you get a digital camera and post some really clear detailed photos of everything (detail) that you can. Then members here can speak from actual knowledge as opposed to guessing. I am having a hard time actually reading the various proof marks.
It appears to have both Belgian and French marks. I suspect that it was actually made and proofed in Belgium and imported into France. The little stamp mark that looks like an old graveyard monument is a Belgian Perron in use since 1853.From the pics I can not opine if the barrels are fake or real forge welded steel. In any case, I see no evidence of anything but a Black Powder regular proof and opine that it is definately not prudent to fire it with anything today.I do not think that it is worth the effort to take more detaild pics of the proof marks. I do not think this shotgun likely has more than 'old wall hanger' value today.Some other member with more than my very limited knowledge of this type of material, might have a different opinion. This gun is pre-Anson fore-end latch patent as August used the Anson latch mechanism almost exclusively after about 1890.but even more interesting is the gun appears to be a transitional lock-up model.
Although the barrels look original, something is strange. Here are all the Belgian proof marks:The gun is a 12ga with an 18mm bore diameter. It was Black Powder proofed only. I believe the Crown V is a very early controller of proof mark.
This proof mark was used from 1853-1877.Because of the lever, I am guessing it was made some time after the Jones patent in 1859. By 1876 Francotte had developed his version and patented it in Belgium and England.This gun has been abused, at least stored very badly. The value would be rather low. No where what his boxlocks are currently selling for, $900 and up.The Firearms Forum is on online community for all gun enthusiasts. Join us to discuss firearms of all kinds, gun accessories, legal issues and more. Membership is free and we welcome all types of shooters, whether you're a novice or a pro. Come for the info, stay and make some friends.
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